From: Gaye Lyn
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 7:47 AM
To: Peter Riool
Subject: nc88829
Hey, Stranger, how are you.
Guess where I am? Florida. Meeting 92-year-old Jack Stettner, pilot
and operations guy for Veterans Air Express. More on that later.
Right now, I’m asking for your help on DC-3 NC88829 that Jack flew. In
your data base, the one that surfaced first wasn’t easy to understand.
Then we found another NC88829 with a CN 6254 – also eventually N88829.
Can you help sort this out. Thanks so much. SHort on time at this
moment, but dashing this off to yo.
My best,
Gaye
——————————————————————————–
From: Peter Riool
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 11:30 AM
To: Gaye.Lyn
Subject: Re: nc88829
Hi Gaye.
US-registrations are used more than once!
C/n 6253 N88829 was registered on Nov 18, 1967 (likely not the one Jack
flew).
It is quite some time after c/n 19415 NC88829 was cancelled on Mar 28,
1949, so this is indeed the one you are looking for in the Veterans Air
fleet
HTH
Peter
——————————————————————————–
From: Gaye Lyn
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 9:36 PM
To: Peter Riool
Subject: Re: nc88829
Peter, thanks for such a quick reply.
You’re saying 19415 was cancelled on Mar28 1949??? What do you mean by
cancelled? The N# was cancelled in 1949, meaning the a/c had flown
under the registration previously and then it change?
Where did you get the c/n 19415 ?
And how does it relate to this info from your website:
10017 C-47A-50-DL xxx 42-24155
DESIG. R4D-5 39067 [W/O]
Sorry if I’m sounding dense— it’s because I am.
Best,
Gaye
——————————————————————————–
From: Peter Riool
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 3:48 AM
To: Gaye.Lyn
Subject: Re: nc88829
Gaye,
While typing this message things became more clear to me, have a look.
Below I copied two full stories from my DC-3 book:
c/n 19415
Douglas C-47A-75-DL, the official designation by Douglas.
Delivered to USAAF Jan 10, 1944 with serial 42-100952.
To Algiers 12th AF Mar 08, 1944.
Morrison Sep 20, 1945.
(Since an earlier mail to you I have now found that this points to
Morrison Field, West Palm Beach, FL.
Many aircraft returning from the war in Europe arrived here.)
RFC Sep 21, 1945.
Registered NC88829.
Registration NC88829 cancelled Mar 28, 1949. That’s all in the book,
nothing on the internet.
But guess what. This is your third Veterans Air DC-3!!
Not only did Mr. Stettner comfirm to you he flew this aircraft but I
just stumbled onto this info in the FAA register:
FAA REGISTRY N-Number Inquiry Results
====================================
N88829 has Reserved/Multiple Records
====================================
Aircraft Description
Serial Number 19415 Certificate Issue Date 05/23/1946
Manufacturer Name DOUGLAS Mode S Code (base 8 / oct) 53037115
Model DC3C-S1C3G Mode S Code (base 16 / hex) AC3E4D
Year Manufacturer None Cancel Date 09/30/1946
Reason for Cancellation Cancelled Export To None
Type Registration Corporation
Aircraft Registration prior to Deregistration
Name VETERANS AIR EXPRESS CO
Street 11 COMMERCE ST
City NEWARK
State NEW JERSEY Zip Code 07102
County ESSEX
Country UNITED STATES
Deregistered Airworthiness
Engine Manufacturer None Classification Unknown
Engine Model None Category None
A/W Date None
Deregistered Other Owner Names
None
====================================
This is the direct link to the FAA page:
registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=88829
====================================
It may seem strange but there is no more information on this aircraft,
anywhere. Not in my book,
nothing on the WWW, it just disappeared on that date in 1946 (as per
FAA) or 1949 (in my book). Maybe it was simply scrapped, I have no clue.
The other aircraft you mentioned yesterday:
c/n 6253
Douglas C-47-DL, the official designation by Douglas.
Delivered to USAAF Jan 26, 1943 with serial 42-5665.
Transferred to US Navy San Diego on the same day with Bureau Number
37663
Struck off charge Oct 31, 1946.
Registered to War Air Assets as NC841.
In 1948 registered as NC88809 for ferry flight to Colombia.
It flew in Colombia with registrations C-316 and HK-316.
Returned to the USA as N88829 (note: NOT NC88829) on Nov 18, 1967,
flying for Hemisphere Air Service, Tallahassee, FL.
On the FAA page you can see this registration was cancelled on Aug 03,
2011
In your second email you mentioned c/n 10017. I don’t know how that came
up, but you can dismiss that one. It crashed in Australia during WWII.
HTH
Peter
——————————————————————————–
From: Al Stettner
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 2:29 PM
To: Gaye Lyn
Cc: Peter Riool
Subject: Re: nc88829
Great stuff! Regarding your question about the cert date, I would
assume that the FAA registry listing is the most recent date of the
certificate rather than the original date. Our DC-3 probably had a cert
issued when it was built, another cert issued when it was converted from
an A model to a C model (for civil use) prior to my Dad’s Jan 46
flights, and then again in May 46, perhaps when it was converted from
cargo to passenger configuration. Make sense?
-Al
Sent from my iPhone
——————————————————————————–
From: Gaye Lyn : On Aug 9, 2015, at 7:33 AM, “Gaye Lyn” wrote:
Peter! Once again, you prove amazing!
I need to study this more and visit the FAA link you provided — which I
will do after breakfast!!!
I do have an immediate question, however, about this piece of info from
the FAA Registry for SN 19415:
Certificate Issue Date 05/23/1946
Jack Stettner’s first log book entry for NC88829, page attached, is
dated 1/22/46. That’s 4 months prior to the Certificate Issue Date.
Just mentioning it as a point needing clarification??
Thanks, Peter. Yeoman’s work!
Gaye
——————————————————————————–
From “Peter Riool”
To “Al Stettner”
Date 8/9/2015 9:34:07 AM
Subject Re: nc88829
Hello Gaye and Al.
For what it is worth: the FAA is known for being sloooow.
What I know from my point of interest, an example is the de-registration
of Convair 880 N802AJ on Nov 19, 2014.
It took them (FAA) some time to realize the aircraft was scrapped. In
December 1999 !!
And there are many more examples like this.
Al’s explanation about renewing certificates a few times following
conversions certainly makes sense.
I suppose a new certificate had to be issued after every conversion then
(just like today), and the FAA is probably faster in registering aircraft
(otherwise they cannot fly) then de-registering aircraft. But still…..
And after i received Al’s email, Gaye questioned the RFC of 42-100952 at
Bush Field on Sep 21, 1945 (as per Joe Baugher).
That’s pretty easy: the aircraft arrived at Morrison Field (in Florida)
from Europe on Sep 20, and was then flown to Bush Field (which was
actually in Augusta, GA) the next day, a distance of only 540 miles.
“The Book” also has RFC at Bush Sep 21, 1945.
P.S. Gaye: I have already informed Ruud Leeuw that we have found the
third Veterans DC-3.
HTH
Peter
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 7:47 AM
To: Peter Riool
Subject: nc88829
Hey, Stranger, how are you.
Guess where I am? Florida. Meeting 92-year-old Jack Stettner, pilot
and operations guy for Veterans Air Express. More on that later.
Right now, I’m asking for your help on DC-3 NC88829 that Jack flew. In
your data base, the one that surfaced first wasn’t easy to understand.
Then we found another NC88829 with a CN 6254 – also eventually N88829.
Can you help sort this out. Thanks so much. SHort on time at this
moment, but dashing this off to yo.
My best,
Gaye
——————————————————————————–
From: Peter Riool
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 11:30 AM
To: Gaye.Lyn
Subject: Re: nc88829
Hi Gaye.
US-registrations are used more than once!
C/n 6253 N88829 was registered on Nov 18, 1967 (likely not the one Jack
flew).
It is quite some time after c/n 19415 NC88829 was cancelled on Mar 28,
1949, so this is indeed the one you are looking for in the Veterans Air
fleet
HTH
Peter
——————————————————————————–
From: Gaye Lyn
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 9:36 PM
To: Peter Riool
Subject: Re: nc88829
Peter, thanks for such a quick reply.
You’re saying 19415 was cancelled on Mar28 1949??? What do you mean by
cancelled? The N# was cancelled in 1949, meaning the a/c had flown
under the registration previously and then it change?
Where did you get the c/n 19415 ?
And how does it relate to this info from your website:
10017 C-47A-50-DL xxx 42-24155
DESIG. R4D-5 39067 [W/O]
Sorry if I’m sounding dense— it’s because I am.
Best,
Gaye
——————————————————————————–
From: Peter Riool
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 3:48 AM
To: Gaye.Lyn
Subject: Re: nc88829
Gaye,
While typing this message things became more clear to me, have a look.
Below I copied two full stories from my DC-3 book:
c/n 19415
Douglas C-47A-75-DL, the official designation by Douglas.
Delivered to USAAF Jan 10, 1944 with serial 42-100952.
To Algiers 12th AF Mar 08, 1944.
Morrison Sep 20, 1945.
(Since an earlier mail to you I have now found that this points to
Morrison Field, West Palm Beach, FL.
Many aircraft returning from the war in Europe arrived here.)
RFC Sep 21, 1945.
Registered NC88829.
Registration NC88829 cancelled Mar 28, 1949. That’s all in the book,
nothing on the internet.
But guess what. This is your third Veterans Air DC-3!!
Not only did Mr. Stettner comfirm to you he flew this aircraft but I
just stumbled onto this info in the FAA register:
FAA REGISTRY N-Number Inquiry Results
====================================
N88829 has Reserved/Multiple Records
====================================
Aircraft Description
Serial Number 19415 Certificate Issue Date 05/23/1946
Manufacturer Name DOUGLAS Mode S Code (base 8 / oct) 53037115
Model DC3C-S1C3G Mode S Code (base 16 / hex) AC3E4D
Year Manufacturer None Cancel Date 09/30/1946
Reason for Cancellation Cancelled Export To None
Type Registration Corporation
Aircraft Registration prior to Deregistration
Name VETERANS AIR EXPRESS CO
Street 11 COMMERCE ST
City NEWARK
State NEW JERSEY Zip Code 07102
County ESSEX
Country UNITED STATES
Deregistered Airworthiness
Engine Manufacturer None Classification Unknown
Engine Model None Category None
A/W Date None
Deregistered Other Owner Names
None
====================================
This is the direct link to the FAA page:
registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=88829
====================================
It may seem strange but there is no more information on this aircraft,
anywhere. Not in my book,
nothing on the WWW, it just disappeared on that date in 1946 (as per
FAA) or 1949 (in my book). Maybe it was simply scrapped, I have no clue.
The other aircraft you mentioned yesterday:
c/n 6253
Douglas C-47-DL, the official designation by Douglas.
Delivered to USAAF Jan 26, 1943 with serial 42-5665.
Transferred to US Navy San Diego on the same day with Bureau Number
37663
Struck off charge Oct 31, 1946.
Registered to War Air Assets as NC841.
In 1948 registered as NC88809 for ferry flight to Colombia.
It flew in Colombia with registrations C-316 and HK-316.
Returned to the USA as N88829 (note: NOT NC88829) on Nov 18, 1967,
flying for Hemisphere Air Service, Tallahassee, FL.
On the FAA page you can see this registration was cancelled on Aug 03,
2011
In your second email you mentioned c/n 10017. I don’t know how that came
up, but you can dismiss that one. It crashed in Australia during WWII.
HTH
Peter
——————————————————————————–
From: Al Stettner
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 2:29 PM
To: Gaye Lyn
Cc: Peter Riool
Subject: Re: nc88829
Great stuff! Regarding your question about the cert date, I would
assume that the FAA registry listing is the most recent date of the
certificate rather than the original date. Our DC-3 probably had a cert
issued when it was built, another cert issued when it was converted from
an A model to a C model (for civil use) prior to my Dad’s Jan 46
flights, and then again in May 46, perhaps when it was converted from
cargo to passenger configuration. Make sense?
-Al
Sent from my iPhone
——————————————————————————–
From: Gaye Lyn : On Aug 9, 2015, at 7:33 AM, “Gaye Lyn” wrote:
Peter! Once again, you prove amazing!
I need to study this more and visit the FAA link you provided — which I
will do after breakfast!!!
I do have an immediate question, however, about this piece of info from
the FAA Registry for SN 19415:
Certificate Issue Date 05/23/1946
Jack Stettner’s first log book entry for NC88829, page attached, is
dated 1/22/46. That’s 4 months prior to the Certificate Issue Date.
Just mentioning it as a point needing clarification??
Thanks, Peter. Yeoman’s work!
Gaye
——————————————————————————–
From “Peter Riool”
To “Al Stettner”
Date 8/9/2015 9:34:07 AM
Subject Re: nc88829
Hello Gaye and Al.
For what it is worth: the FAA is known for being sloooow.
What I know from my point of interest, an example is the de-registration
of Convair 880 N802AJ on Nov 19, 2014.
It took them (FAA) some time to realize the aircraft was scrapped. In
December 1999 !!
And there are many more examples like this.
Al’s explanation about renewing certificates a few times following
conversions certainly makes sense.
I suppose a new certificate had to be issued after every conversion then
(just like today), and the FAA is probably faster in registering aircraft
(otherwise they cannot fly) then de-registering aircraft. But still…..
And after i received Al’s email, Gaye questioned the RFC of 42-100952 at
Bush Field on Sep 21, 1945 (as per Joe Baugher).
That’s pretty easy: the aircraft arrived at Morrison Field (in Florida)
from Europe on Sep 20, and was then flown to Bush Field (which was
actually in Augusta, GA) the next day, a distance of only 540 miles.
“The Book” also has RFC at Bush Sep 21, 1945.
P.S. Gaye: I have already informed Ruud Leeuw that we have found the
third Veterans DC-3.
HTH
Peter